Why We Occupy
October 25
James
James, originally from Washington State, but I’ve lived in New York for four years now.
How did you get involved?
I just came down here. I was walking around, and I started talking to people, and then . . . I just moved into the De-Escalation/Security role.
What does that entail?
Just kind of keeping the peace in the park. Making sure nobody steals anything from the area. Recognizing faces in this spot.
In this spot . . . to see that people are coming in who should be?
Yeah.
Is that a full-time job?
Yeah.
Do you sleep right here? You have to sleep near the equipment?
Yeah. Here, at night, usually.
I take it there have been some problems with theft.
Yeah, there have been.
Do you think it’s from within or from without?
Uh, I think it’s from without. We’ve kind of gotten rid of the sketchy people in the group.
How have you done that? You kicked them out?
We kicked them out, yeah. There’s people that work in here who say that they recognize people that have kind of taken something.
When you kick them out, you kick them out of the park, or you kick them out of this area?
Just the immediate area.
So then they move somewhere else?
Mm-hmm.
I guess you can’t actually kick them out of the park.
No.
Are there problems in general with that, or just basically with the equipment?
With the equipment, like laptops, cameras, stuff like that. Electronics, backpacks.
When was the first time you heard about Occupy Wall Street?
It was the pepper-spray incident. And then I watched Chris Hedges being interviewed here. He’s been a war correspondent for a long time, and he’s been supporting this movement from the beginning. I was watching this on my computer—YouTube video—and he said this line: “People need to wake up from their digital hallucinations.” And then something kind of clicked in my head. That’s when I started coming down more, started getting a little more involved.
You were not an activist before.
I was not. Not at all.
What was your old life? What were you doing before?
Just going to school. Kind of just milling around, not knowing what to do with myself, with my time.
Sum up your reasons for occupying.
The environment is definitely one, because I think we’re at the cusp of environmental disaster with all the natural resources being taken out. Weather’s getting weird. And then, corruption. Politicians. Lobbyists in Washington writing the laws and stuff like that. ❖
Dan
Do you work here at Media, too?
No, I work in Info, and I’m in the band.
What’s the band?
It’s called the Pulse. We do drumming every day.
Oh, the drummers.
Bystander: It’s an actual working group.
Is it really? I didn’t know that.
Dan: Yeah. Come down at twelve o’clock. You’ll see it.
Okay.
We’re, like, the heartbeat of the movement.
I heard you guys got kind of shafted with the money?
I don’t know if that passed. I sat on the original proposal, and they wanted more input and stuff. I didn’t stick around. Myself, I carry my own drums, and I don’t worry about people funding me. I got my stuff, you know? Some of the others . . . I guess they had a proposal in. They wanted the occupation—you know, the organization—to kick in eight thousand dollars to replace some of the drums.
What did you think of that?
Ah, I thought it was a little excessive. I think there’s enough drums down there. We don’t have to spend more money, you know? They never asked me, so I never told them. I just keep quiet. I go down there and drum whether they get the money or not, you know?
What kind of drum do you play?
Djembé. African drum. And I play the cowbell.
How did you get involved with Occupy Wall Street?
Well, I’ve been an activist all my life, and I thought it was a really good strategy of coming to Wall Street with our peeps. I think that as long as we’re underfoot, we can call attention to what’s going on. And we’re getting a lot of press. For the amount of work we’re doing individually, we’re getting a lot of press nationally, you know? We’re actually accomplishing something. What the final outcome is I’m not sure, but I like the momentum.
Have you been occupying since the beginning?
No, I got here about two weeks ago.
And are you here? [Points.] Is this your sleeping spot?
Yeah, I’m in Info. One day I manned one of the—I person-ed one of the tables, and they seen that I was helpful. And so one thing led to another. They kept on giving me more stuff to do, more stuff to do.
And one night we got rained on real bad, and I met some girl that I’m particularly fond of. We got stuck in the rain together. The rain actually brought us together, you know? So the next day, we went to the laundromat. We went to my house—we took a run up to Beacon and back—and we’ve just been really good friends ever since.
That’s wonderful.
Yeah, it’s funny how tragedies bring people together, you know? In a good way, it was a nice rainstorm. We got stuck in rain, and the rain was coming down so hard, but we helped each other stay dry. We went to McDonald’s after work, and we’ve been close friends ever since.
When was that?
When was it? I think it was Tuesday or Wednesday night. It really rained hard that night.
How’s the preparations for the weather going?
Well, you see, it’s kind of rag tag. But the city don’t want us making anything really constructed. You know, we could really do a lot down here if they allowed us, but we’re just doing a little more than they allow. But yeah, we’ll get to it no matter what. I’m kind of interested to see how it’s going to be in the wintertime. But, ah, I’m kind of prepared for it. I have a big van that I’ve been parking across the street, and I can park there twenty-three hours a day.
Except when they’re cleaning?
Yeah, one hour I’ve got to move so they can clean, but so far, I didn’t have to move it yet. I took it home the other day, and I left it there and took the train down, but I’m getting ready to go back up there—back home—because I ran out of medicine. I have Parkinson’s disease. I’m going to be out of medicine in about four or five hours, so I’ve got to get my butt going home. It’s a hassle that I’ve got to stop and head up north. I might be able to make a phone call and have someone come down here.
It’s one of these things where you have to pick it up yourself?
It’s kind of one of these things where I didn’t bring enough, so I’ve got to pay for it. In other words, I’ve been down here three or four days, and I underestimate how much I need. When I put them in my bottle it seems like a lot, but you know, as much as I’m taking, it goes quick. I’m putting a lot of hours in down here, so I need to take more medicine.
They take care of me well down here. They got a medic tent over there, so I do the herbs and I do acupuncture. It’s for free.
They do acupuncture over there?
It’s really neat. They don’t have much room over there, so they do acupuncture that’s performed on the ears. Ever hear of that? They say every part of your ear goes to every part of your body, so if you’ve got a bad—like, I’ve got a bad upper and lower back. You can actually see some of the things in my ear. Can you see them things?
Uh-huh.
They leave them in there. So in other words, I’m getting acupuncture. These’ll last up to forty-eight hours, and I had them put in the day before yesterday.
So you find that helpful, the acupuncture?
I got so much wrong on me, I can’t really notice the little things. I got a really bad back and I hurt all the time. So right now I’m kind of pain-free, but if it’s not one thing it’s another, yeah. That’s what you get for getting old, you know?
I know. I’m trying to avoid that, but so far it’s not working.
Yeah. I don’t know how to stop it myself, but I’m going to have a good time doing it, you know? I’ve been waiting for these days for the last forty years. I’ve been a leftist my entire life. My brother turned me on to it when I was in high school, you know, and I’ve been reading this left-wing literature all my life.
What was the first thing he turned you on to?
Just some political party called the Socialist Labor Party that was a revolutionary organization way back then. I think at the time they were the third-oldest political party in the United States. They were around since 1905 or 1895 or something. Pretty dogmatic group. I learned a lot from them. They since have disbanded, but they had a lot of good ideas. Probably a little ahead of their time, I guess.
Maybe now the times are changing?
When the time is ripe, it will happen, you know? Can’t force anything. It’ll happen when it happens. You’ve just got to stick around, that’s all.
I’m not sure what it’s going to be. I’m looking for some type of collaborative or cooperative society that’s not based on profit. In other words, this country is run just for profit, where I think we should be producing for human needs rather than this anarchy of production.
Would you say that your primary reason for coming down is to hasten that?
To help out any way I can, yeah. I’m just happy to be around to witness it and to be a part of it. I go to a lot of Rainbow Gatherings, you know what that is? That offers some kind of glimpse of future society as well, and I see a lot of the same kind of people at Rainbows that I see here—very helpful, very friendly, outgoing, willing to give their all.
When I was leaving the subway yesterday, I met a couple of people. Normally, I wouldn’t talk on the subway with people, but we engaged in a great conversation just for a few minutes. Then I was getting off the subway, and I left my phone on the seat because I was doing something and I totally spaced out. And these two attentive kids down here ran up and said, “Hey is this your phone?” They got off the subway; they missed their train.
You can tell, really, that people have been here. After they’ve been here, they’re simply changed. I get the same feeling when I go to Rainbow Gatherings. You see people after they’ve been to the gathering, they’re very helpful, very mellow. Just nice people, you know? ❖
Jacquel
Well, my name is Jacquel. I’m from Brooklyn, and I’m an occupant. That’s pretty much it.
How long have you been here for?
The days start to blend together. I can’t say correctly. I’ll say two weeks and a half. Yeah, about two weeks and a half I’ve been here. Been long.
It’s turned into something like a residential building. You have your good neighbors, your bad neighbors, your friendly neighbors, your neighbors willing to help, your neighbors who ignore. So it’s a community within a community, and we’re working the kinks on how to better deal with each other. The issues of economics can only be dealt with once we learn how to deal with the issues of social, because economics affect our social interactions. Once we learn how to build the social—which we are doing—we can work on the economic. So I think that’s the problem here, the whole residential-building analogy.
So some people are not getting along very well?
Well, people you wouldn’t see together for the most part are working with each other. People are genuinely trying to understand that they’re not the only people that need help; there are other people out there who are in positions of despair. One person’s situation may not be as dire as the other, but we all are in a bind. We all need to lock arms in protest, and help each other out. So there’s a general consensus.
Yeah, we may have disagreements. There may be arguments. There may even be in-house fighting. This is a movement, and there are different energies. Abundance of energies! For the most part, people get along a lot better than outside the park, relatively. So it’s pretty good.
What is this desk?
Well, this is the Info desk. It’s sort of like a host, but I don’t involve myself too much with things. I’m actually trying to get a paper going. I am a writer—a poet-slash-writer—so I’m trying to get involved with generating the identity. Like how with the Great Depression, they came out with some products that became the staple of the community not so much because they were great products, but because the products were thoughtful and considerate of the consumer.
So you know, the occupation is a platform for those people who truly want to go into the next stage of our culture. What happens is: This won’t be here forever, and once it reaches its pinnacle and change does come about, there has to be something that we can bring out of it, something that can remind us of the reason it happened, so we won’t forget. There’s definitely a need for that.
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I do everything. I sweep. I help if someone’s falling. I do whatever’s necessary to maintain the overall occupation. Whatever’s necessary.
What made you decide to come down for the first time?
Well, I’d like to give a shout-out to my son.
Okay.
I came down because I have a three-year-old son, and I have a nephew. It was something that I’d heard of; I can’t remember exactly where. But there’s a sense that the generations which come after us . . . if we are not fighting for their freedoms and their abilities to dream and their abilities to have an opportunity, we are committing suicide by mass neglect. We are allowing our children’s future to be but a measuring stick—something which we can barter—just so our present can be a little bit more comfortable.
I am here because I believe, as Whitney Houston said, that “the children are our future.” I don’t want to be sixty-seven years old and there’s only two doctors in New York, you know? I want there to be a consistency in the growth of our country, and we have kids going to school to be doctors, and they’re able to find jobs as doctors, and the hospitals are not closed.
I’m concerned about the future of my baby, too.
Very important. By fighting for them now, it also instills in them the idea that we have the right to fight. It’s not just because we don’t like what’s going on, we also have the right to say so.
We want to be heard. As an African American, our voices have been suppressed for so long. Our voices have been but images on T.V., or a radio song. Whether it be the golden oldies or today’s hip hop, we only have a select amount of images. When powerful images come up, people feel empowered. So if we continue to give our kids images which they can fight for and live for, then we become a much stronger nation in the future. That is the reason I’m here.
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My winter game plan is just to stay in motion, because a body in motion stays in motion, and motion generates heat. So I mean, as long as you dress warm, you stay in motion . . . and enjoy the sun. Don’t hide, but let the sun heat us.
Do you have good gear? Do you have a sleeping bag and stuff?
I have a sleeping bag, but I haven’t had outside gear. I never really went camping, so I’m going to make do with what I have, and what I have will make do. I have no choice.
Where’s your spot?
I don’t sleep. I just rest on a bench and close my eyes for a little bit.
You’re sleeping at home?
I sleep at home, yes, because I work two jobs. I need to be home to get back into the world. Well, I quit my other job, but I have to be in the world to take care of my son. Although this is taking care of his future.
What does he think about it? Have you talked to him?
Well, he’s three years old, so I just tell him Daddy’s working. But there will come a point where he will ask me because I’ve been interviewed by a few people. Underground people have spoken to me, and there will be a story somewhere that I’ve told, so it will come out. I don’t know what I’ll tell him because I don’t know where it’s going yet. And if the story comes out bad, I’ll tell him that I wasn’t in my right mind.
[Laughs.] “I was young . . .”
I was young. It was the thing of the time.
But if it comes out well, “I was there from the beginning.”
I was there from the beginning. I had the belief, the faith. You know, we don’t want to be passive-aggressive when we lose, so we set that up.
You’ve got to have—what’s the expression?—plausible deniability.
Plausible deniability, yeah. “It was cool.” ❖
Laura I
You don’t have to give me your full name.
Great. If you’re happy to go with Laura, I’m happy to work with that.
May I ask what the danger is?
Um, I work in media and journalism.
Do you think it would be a problem?
No, I just think that I am here on my own personal activities. I don’t want to mix business and work, especially when I’m supposed to be unbiased in my work.
Sure, that makes sense. Are you occupying?
Yep, I’m occupying. I work in the kitchen—that’s the working group I work for. I was living in New York City for about a year before this happened. I found it very hard to make ends meet, frankly, doing freelance work. A lot of my friends were working in the financial system. I thought it was pretty frustrating that so quickly, a great social and cultural divide had opened up between very close friends of mine. I also was frustrated to see a lot of the smartest and most passionate people of my generation going into the financial system because it felt like the only option for many to make a really good life.
I’d like to see a system in which we value work that contributes to the community. I’d like to see us value that more highly, both monetarily and respect-wise. Obviously, the debates over the teachers’ unions this past summer and this whole past year made me very frustrated. The way we treat teachers, the way we treat unions . . . I think we’re starting to devalue hard and important work in this country, and I want to start valuing it more.
I also think that right now, the financial regulation rules get written by the people who work at the top of the financial pyramid. That’s not the way that we run any other sector of our society. That to me doesn’t feel fair. I’m all for a high-functioning capitalist system, but regulation doesn’t mean internal regulation. Obviously, that didn’t work very well for the last forty years.
And how have you been finding the experience of occupying?
Really inspiring and really frustrating at the same time. Right now, the fact is that we have gotten really wrapped up in park politics, because we’re trying to bring a lot of different people into a very small area, and get them to get along and live together.
For a lot of people, they consider that we’re trying to create a model society, and use this as a microcosm of what could happen in the rest of the world. I’m not interested in that. I’m not interested in changing the republic. ❖
Cam
Well, my name’s Cam. I’m a resident of Texas. I actually just got here on August twenty-seventh. I moved here, and then this happened, like, two and a half weeks later, so I just came at the right time, I guess.
What am I doing here? I’ve always been involved in social issues, like in my schools and things like that. My major was social justice. I’ve always been proactive, and concerned about my future. That’s the biggest reason why I’m here. Finally, people have woken up and said, “We see what you’re doing, and we’re going to say something about it.”
It bothers me that people are gambling with my future who are not going to be around, you know? The lawmakers—the Congress—have us trapped in the two-party system. All the decisions that they’re making, and they’re not even going to be around in twenty, twenty-five years. This is my future that they’re gambling with, and I don’t like that.
The biggest thing that has me moved and inspired is that I always felt that the people of our generation didn’t really care. We were more concerned with labels and things like that, or with the next electronic thing that’s going to come out, without actually caring about our future, being proactive in it. So the fact that this is mostly young people saying, “We see what you’re doing and we’re not standing for it!” just really inspired me.
It took me a week before I actually came down here. I was just seeing what was going on, and then hearing from people I knew that were here, and then the stuff that I was seeing on T.V., and it not matching up, you know what I mean?
What was the discrepancy?
Well, I had no idea that it was a sense of community here. The first day I walked in, this guy that worked with me—his name is Chris; he’s somewhere around here—he was like, “You want something to eat?” So I was like, “Sure! Where are we going?” But he said, “No, come to the kitchen!” I asked how much it cost, and he was like, “No, it’s paid for. Everything is free. You don’t have to pay for anything.”
And then it was a rainy day. I didn’t have rain boots, so I went over to Comfort and I got rain boots. And I just saw how organized it is, with Medical and all that.
On T.V. they’re making it like it’s a bunch of crazy hippies that don’t know why they’re here, or they’re getting arrested—they’re, like, loud. It’s totally not what’s going on. So I was like, “You know what? I’ve got to stay there.”
So that day I stayed. I didn’t have anything with me. I got clothes from Comfort. I got a sleeping bag, dry socks, so . . . so I’ve been staying ever since, with the exception of the last three days because of being sick, whatever.
You said that people sometimes take your sleeping bag?
Well, I didn’t say that; I don’t know. I haven’t been over there, so I don’t know if my camp is still there. But I didn’t buy it, anyway. The Comfort station gave me a big bag—a potato sack—and it had, like, a pack of socks; two hoodies—not this one, but another one; a sleeping bag; basic hygiene stuff like mouthwash, baby wipes; shoes.
Really?
Yeah, in a potato sack. They gave it to me from the Comfort station over there. A side product of all this is the fact that we’re proving our point by the little social micro-community system—whatever you want to put on it—that we have going on here. Everyone’s donating, pouring out. Before we run out of stuff, people bring more stuff. Each day I get more and more inspired by the sense of community.
It’s proving the point that you don’t have to hoard. You don’t have to take from people to be okay, to survive. Everyone’s taking care of people that they don’t know. Like, someone set me up with a soft place to sleep that night. It’s just amazing, the outpouring. It’s proving the point that we’re standing here for, as a by-product—I don’t really like that word, but for lack of a better word—of the literal society that we’ve got going on here.
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I don’t like the fact that you have to be careful what you say because you may lose your job, you know what I mean? That type of stuff really bothers me, just in general. We can’t say anything because we’re controlled by these powers-that-be that we put into power. We’re kind of stuck in not being able to have a voice, when we outnumber the people that are speaking for us!
We are one of the most developed nations—if not the most—but yet, we have such high unemployment. We don’t have health care and this and that. It’s just a lot of shit wrong, and no one’s really brave enough to [act], for whatever reason: because they’re going to lose their job, or they have a family, or whatever the case may be. The fact that we’re finally coming together and doing it—I just had to be a part of it.
Are you comfortable sleeping here? How are you finding it?
It’s surprisingly comfortable. Well, I kind of have a really awesome setup. I don’t know what these things are called, but I got it from my friend. She was in the Marines; it was what she used in Iraq or whatever. It’s, like, this little . . . what are those things called? It’s like if a tent had a baby with a sleeping bag. It’s a one-person tent-style thing, but it folds up, and then it pops out. And it zips up, so it protects you. It’s enough for one body, and it has, like, a little arch.
I use that, and then I put a sleeping bag inside of it so it’s really warm, and then I put a tarp over that. So I’m living as though I’m, like, the Upper East Side of Zuccotti. I’ve been finding it pretty peaceful, for the most part. I don’t really go to sleep that much since I’ve been here, but I usually go to sleep around two.
What is the system? How are you guys feeding everyone?
Well, it’s pretty much all donations, is that what you mean? You don’t have to pay for anything here. Whenever we have meals, people come with food donations. I don’t know if you saw right there, but we just got three donations. That’s what people do. They say, “What can I do? What can I bring you?” Or they’ll come take an order, and then they’ll go bring it back. And people have been sending lots of pizza, especially at lunch- and dinnertime. I don’t know if it’s that OccuPie Web site—I haven’t been around a computer in, like, three weeks—but people from all over the world have been sending us pizzas. Yeah, everything is donation-based, and like I said, it’s amazing the by-product.
I don’t think any of us anticipated this happening, this sense of community and giving. People from different states! I keep getting close to people, and then I realize that they’re from a different state. They’re like, “Oh, I’ve got to go,” and I’m like, “Are you going to work?” They say, “No, I’ve got to go home,” and when I ask them what they mean, they’re like, “I live in Oregon,” or, “I live in Michigan.” He’s not here now, but there’s a guy, Warren, who lives in Michigan. And the other guy who was sitting with me—oh, there’s Warren.
How many people work at doing the meals?
In the kitchen? It’s not a set number. There’s people that are here regularly, like myself, but then there’s also people that just help. There’ll be people that are in line, eating, that are like, “Can I help you? I’ll eat first, and I’ll come back here.” A lot of people may help one day, you know what I mean? There’s not a staff, so to speak. If I had to guess . . . I don’t know, twelve to twenty people, give or take, that rotate. There’s a core of people that have been helping coordinate stuff, but I mean, there’s no leaders or anything like that at all. ❖
Warren
Right now, the security issue is possibly our top priority as a collective. I personally don’t know how we’re going to handle it. As soon as we start trying to police people, then that is a nasty aspect that will make things fall apart. People will start pointing fingers, and go, “Oh, you’re an elitist!” And then our whole little community that we’ve built starts having hierarchy, and that’s not a good thing. If people could just respect the cause . . . unfortunately, some of the people here do not, and those are the people that are taking advantage of it.
Is it that area? [Points.]
I don’t disagree, but . . . you can walk around and tell what’s what.
Well, I can tell by who is really hostile about talking to me.
Unfortunately, there are definitely a couple of people, I personally believe, who are agitating strictly for the sake of agitating.
Do you think that they’re agitating in a technical sense, or do you think that they’re just assholes?
Well, that’s what is in question. These are just my personal beliefs. I can’t speak for everyone. I’m a little bit more conspiratorial, maybe, but I do believe that police are sending drunk people off the street, saying, “Hey, you can’t drink in public, so you go to Zuccotti Park.” And then they’re standing out there, and that gives them an excuse to come in, because there’s people drinking in public and they’re agitating, causing problems. Not just that, but I do believe that there are people that are being asked—or are very willing—to come in and directly cause issues and spread rumors.
What kind of things?
Just . . .
There was a guy the other day who was shouting that the cops were about to come in, and people were like, “What are you talking about?” Is that the kind of thing you mean?
No, like, with the kitchen, people are saying—not everyone, but only a couple of people . . . almost exclusively one man—but they’re saying that we’re taking all the best food and hiding it. We’re eating high-class, five-star meals. We have the kitchen shut down, and we’re hiding under here and eating all the best food that comes in.
We on the line—when there’s food out, there is none left, so if we don’t . . . what we do: We take a bowl and we set it under the counter, and if there’s something we like, we throw it under there real quick. And so after four hours of serving, all our food is cold, and you know, maybe a little dirty, and then we go back there and we eat. Everybody else we’ve served, and yet there are people coming up and going, “Look at all that food right there! We want that now!” But that is food to prepare for lunch and dinner, indefinitely, for everyone, forever.
So you can’t win, even though you’re totally busting your ass.
Yes! Yes! Obviously, a lot of people here are very appreciative and understanding, but when certain people aren’t, it is very, very hard and frustrating to me. Still, it kind of makes it easy to understand who’s here for what reason.
What do you think the percentage is of who’s here for movement reasons versus who’s here to do whatever else?
I’d probably say seventy/thirty.
Seventy movement?
Yes.
That’s actually pretty good.
Yeah. That may be a little generous, but I would like to be optimistic.
So how long have you been here?
I flew out a couple weeks ago. I was here for, I think, five days, and then I had to go back home and work. I go to school, too, so I had to catch back up on that stuff. That got me enough money to come back out, so I used my vacation days, and called in a couple days.
You’re in college now?
Yes.
What’s your field?
Photography and philosophy.
How are you keeping up with your coursework?
Carefully. [Laughs.]
Do you have friends taking notes and stuff?
No.
You just have a syllabus?
I’ve got a syllabus, and I hope that they follow by it!
So you just make sure to be in for papers or whatever?
Yep, yeah.
That seems a little stressful.
A little bit. I have to—what day is today? Is today Tuesday? Okay, tomorrow morning, I have to get on a plane back to Michigan, go do all my homework, and then go to class.
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How did you first hear about the movement?
Well, I don’t get on the T.V. or the Internet very much, but I heard that a band that is my favorite band ever was playing here.
You’re not talking about the Radiohead incident, are you?
No, they’re a band called Kayo Dot.
What are they called?
Kayo Dot.
I haven’t heard of them.
Not many people have. I heard that they were playing out here, so I was like, “Okay, I’ve never seen them in my life. They’re my favorite band. I’m going to go out there.” And then I’m the kind of guy that really likes to travel a lot, and it’s like, “If I’m going to go to New York, I might as well stay for a while and bum around, whatever,” because I don’t have a problem with that too much. I’ve been just about everywhere.
Really? Like, in the States?
I’m working on going overseas. I’ve only been in the U.S., but I’ve been just about everywhere in the U.S., camping.
How do you get around?
Motorcycle. Last summer I had a motorcycle. I usually have a car, but I was trying something different, and I took my bike out for a while.
So what was that like?
Uh, the most amazing summer of my life.
Really? That sounds wonderful. That’s the kind of thing I’d love to do, but now I’m a fogy, so . . .
You can always do it. You can always do it.
So you camped your way around the country. Where do you camp?
In the woods or on the streets.
Do you run into a lot of trouble doing that?
I’m really discreet. I don’t want to brag, but I’m very resourceful. I have a lot of logic, and a little bit of street smarts. I’m also a country kid, so I can take care of myself without too many resources. And I’m very minimalist, so if I have a tarp and a cot, I should be good to go.
That’s awesome. You grew up in Michigan?
Yes, and Montana.
Are you going to be here for the winter?
Yeah, I especially want to come back during the winter because that is when we’re going to need the core people here, the people who actually support the cause. We need to show the world that we believe in this cause. We believe in this, and we’re not going to dissipate just because it’s cold out. In the world’s eyes, we’re still just a bunch of kids who are hanging out, essentially. Because a lot of people don’t come down here and see what’s happening, they get one certain news, and it’s portrayed very badly. They show people the negative side.
Which is here . . .
It’s here, but there’s more to it than they’re portraying. On the news, it does look like just kids hanging out—up here and down there—because that’s what it is. They’re not getting in here and looking at these several different functional groups that are keeping this place going, and keeping the cops out, and keeping everyone . . . peaceful.
According to where you go and who you talk to, it is a slightly different vision.
Yeah, because everybody’s here for it! Everybody’s been slighted by our government and our current economic structure. Everybody. And in different ways. So if you go over there, you’re going to hear a completely different story from over here. I’m a union member, so I might have something to bitch about, you know? They’re hurting our unions.
What’s your union?
U.F.C.W.
U.F.C.W. Federal Communications Workers?
It’s very convoluted right now. We’ve been having a lot of changes. We actually just changed our entire contract and everything. We lost our pension.
What did they do with it?
They changed it to a 401(k). We were told, “It is a good thing, because pensions are run on stocks,” and then they said that the 401(k) is a solid plan. But that is a blatant lie; it is the other way around. If the economy collapses, the pension should be solid, standing firm, and then the 401(k) is contingent on the stock market.
So we got blatantly lied to, but unfortunately, us warehouse workers have the same contract as the people in the store, and the people in the store outnumber us greatly. They kind of got offered a better deal, and since they’re the greatest number, we lost the vote. I respect the vote, but part of the reason why we lost the vote was simply because people weren’t informed. Certain people got blatantly lied to. It’s really unfortunate.
I digressed on a whole different train of thought there. We were talking about how I got here.
Oh, yeah. How you decided to come down here.
I heard this rumor that my band was playing. Not my band, but . . .
The band you like.
Yes. So I looked it up on the Internet—went somewhere and got on there—and sure enough, they were playing. And I was like, “Well, I’m going to be in New York for about five days. I better find things to do.” And one of the first hits when I type in “New York” was this Occupy Wall Street. I hadn’t heard anything about it on the news. Nothing. Not . . . nothing, which is, in retrospect now, really bizarre.
This is how many weeks ago?
Two. So it had already been going for two weeks. I was like, “Wow! This is really awesome! It’s about time!” And I came here. The first day, got off the train, did the stereotypical walk through Manhattan, Central Park, took a couple pictures, and rushed down here; tried to get here as fast I could. And I loved this so much that I came back again for it. Coming back again during the winter.
What’s your sleeping situation?
Well, after we get done serving people . . .
Which is, like, what? Two in the morning?
The last couple nights, we’ve been closing at eleven. We used to stay . . . I remember one night, we were serving food until three or four o’clock, and it was just outrageous. We can’t do that, you know? So we’re trying to set up a structured time, and I believe dinner now is going to be from seven to nine, nine thirty. And then after that, I might have enough time to go grab a beer. And then when I try to find a spot to sleep, I . . . you know, well, there’s a spot right there. I could lay down right there.
You have stuff you carry around?
I have a sleeping bag.
You were already saying you’re used to rough-and-tumble.
Yep, I’m pretty used to it. But like I said, I’m a country kid, so the urban camping-type thing is a little different to me. I mean, I’ve never seen this amount of people. I’m from Michigan, so when I came up to New York and walked around, I was like, “Wow!” I’ve been to big cities. I’ve been to Chicago, but when people say “big city,” they mean New York, New York. And it is what it is.
And strangers—complete strangers—are laying down shoulder-to-shoulder with no room in between. It’s like that.
That seems a little intense.
It’s pretty intense. It’s beautiful, but also a little . . . because I really like to be isolated. Noise I can’t handle.
Does that disturb your sleep? I mean, it’s pretty noisy down here.
Massively. I’ve learned, when I travel, to carry earplugs, and a bandanna or something to put over my eyes. That helps a little bit, but I mean, this is New York. Right now it’s quiet, but it’s still loud as hell to me. It’s loud as hell. The generators aren’t even on.
[Mohammad interrupts the conversation and hassles Warren about the kitchen being closed. After shouting obscenities for a few moments, he moves off.]
Yeah, and that. You know, set up a structured meal time, which I personally do not think is outrageous. I think it’s a very good idea. A peaceful way to clean up the camp, probably, is by restricting meals, because when we’re feeding 24/7, honestly, drunk people are coming in off the streets, you know? “Hey, I heard there’s food up here!” Sometimes they cause problems because they don’t care about this. They’re just here because they’re drunk and want food, and a whole array of situations like that.
[A passer-by donates a box of energy bars.]
A lot of people do that. These are just individuals, and that box of things right there probably cost at least thirteen bucks.
Do you take pre-made food? Like, if somebody made you chili or something?
It depends.
If it’s a creep?
Uh . . .
You use your judgment.
It is kind of a judgment call. I mean, if it’s one of the people that has been openly agitating and has been very, very suspicious, and they come up: “Eat this, man!” You know, we’re probably going to go, “Hey, okay, let’s look at it.” We look at all the food. If it is homemade, we look at it. We might taste it first, honestly. We’ve had people that are, like, “Uh, I don’t know. Who wants to try a bite?” But none of the food is rotten. We inspect all of it as thoroughly as we can.
We’re obviously not . . . actually, we have some people who work in soup kitchens and gourmet restaurants here. They’re our go-to guys when us more unintelligent, uneducated kitchen folk are in doubt, so we rely on them a little bit. That almost never happens. They make it, they bring it out, it gets sent down, it gets put out, and then it’s gone.
It seems like you run a pretty tight ship. The first time I was down here, there was some dumpster food.
We at no point ever served it. Some people did try to bring it out; it was good intentions, but misguided because we are not homeless people. I’m not saying that homeless people need food from the dumpster.
That’s something you do when you have to.
When you have to, and we don’t have to. And we don’t want to. We don’t want to give our people food from a dumpster. It’s unsanitary, unsafe, and we have to keep everything as clean and orderly, and I don’t want to say it, but looking as good as possible, because really, this is the epicenter for all the Occupys. The eyes of the world are on this spot mainly. If we’re putting trash out on the table, and again, those certain news crews come in: “Look at this garbage that they’re putting out! Look at all these people getting sick!” That would be detrimental to what we’re trying to build.
We’re trying to make something really nice here. So far it’s working. There are always some negative elements to anything, but overall, it is going pretty well.
It really is looking pretty good.
Let me just ask you before I forget: The book is called Why We Occupy, so we’re just trying to get that part of it down, too.
Um, a lot of people aren’t, but I consider myself an ideal capitalist, or even a communist, which kind of sounds contradictory, but . . .
Well, they meet around.
Yeah. I do thoroughly believe that when a person works and earns for something, they deserve their rights to it. I’m a union member. That’s the union in me. And the communal idea—this [kitchen] is that aspect of it. We’re serving everybody, even if they’re coming up and they’re yelling at us. We serve them. We say, “Please, just . . . you can argue with us over here. You can yell at us over here, but don’t hold the line up. We’ve got eight hundred more people to serve. Just yell over there.” But, uh . . . oh, shit! I got deterred.
Why was I here? A major thing: the bailouts. That’s the capitalist in me. It is simply outrageous. Outrageous! A business, when it does not do well, should fail, move over, and make room for another business. That is what keeps the economy and society stimulated: continuous growth. Unfortunately, everything at some point will come to an end. These banks are hemorrhaging money, and then our government is taking our money that we earned, and putting billions into this bank that is hemorrhaging money. Bleeding out.
And we lose that money because that money really doesn’t exist. Unfortunately, we stopped backing our money by gold and precious metals in . . . what? 1913? I’m not sure of the year. But we have so much imaginary money, and everybody’s in debt to everyone.
A child knows that when we have five dollars and we go to the store and spend that five dollars, we don’t have it anymore. We don’t say, “Go ahead and give it to me on credit.” It’s outrageous.
They have our economic system set up to where we are indentured servants. Education is a beautiful thing, but they’re making students pay tens of thousands of dollars to go to school. And how are we doing it? Middle-class people can’t afford it, so we have to take out loans. They give people loans that they know they cannot repay until they’re sixty-five, making their wage as a doctor or whatever they’re trying to be. And media and society are saying, “We don’t have enough doctors.” I don’t want to say it’s untrue, but—uh, what was it? The pharmacists push. They pushed pharmacy massively a couple years ago . . .
As a degree?
Yes, as a profession. All over the U.S., they were saying, “We’re short pharmacists! Pharmacists are making thirty dollars an hour! Everyone become a pharmacist!” So all these people were like, “Oh! Jobs are in need! I’ll do that!” They went and did it, and they went in debt. They found out that there were really no pharmacist jobs. And again, because I’m a little conspiratorial, it is a construct: Tell people what to get into, and then there’s no market for it but they’re in debt.
Everybody’s drifting away from knowing how to take care of themselves. If this all collapsed, all these people would be done. Nobody knows how to grow anything—very few people do. No one knows basic survival skills without Walmart, and it’s scary. It is so scary. When the government controls the food, they control the people. The government controls the food and the media.
The media concept of all this is scary to me, because people don’t have a will to learn for themselves. They watch the T.V., and the news tells them, “This group is stupid.” The news is telling them that these kids want more welfare. That is obviously not what this is about. I’ve heard that from several different extremist Republicans that see just a group of kids that want more welfare and disability and free money from the government. That is so outrageous!
That’s just a lie.
Yes! And you can watch the news channels go around and specifically pick people out who are obviously not really part of this group—people who have no political intelligence. And then they display it and say, “This is the face of the occupation!”
Right. Like a crazy guy who’s shouting in your face.
Yes, and they have done it.
I’ve seen it.
Yeah, media’s terrified of me, and it comes back to the people. So many people just don’t care. They don’t even have a drive for themselves to live, anymore. They have no will of their own. Everything’s kind of, I think, turned a shade of gray for them. And it’s just, “Well, I’m told to do this.” I think things are getting very Orwellian. I love George Orwell.
I do, too.
I think things are going that way. That’s what this is about, you know? Wake up! Please! It is work, but work has to be done for things to happen. We can’t go to the metaphorical grocery store and just get whatever we want. We have to cultivate it, work on it, and say, “This is possible, people! Open up your mind just a little bit. Please don’t just accept what this news channel’s telling you. If you have a doubt, or even if you agree with it, look into it to see if it is true. Try, at least. At least try, because there’s always going to be disinformation. You’re never going to get the full story, even if you are here.” There’s aspects of this place that I haven’t touched on because I just don’t know.
Like what?
Um, you know, I can’t tell you exactly how Media works.
Yeah, I feel like there’s something mysterious going on in there.
This might be a psychological thing, but these people that run the tech—I don’t want to use a cliché word, but I mean, they’re tech kids, and they’re usually more secluded people, a little bit.
That’s true. It’s probably not some Machiavellian thing.
Yeah, I would not believe that. I think that they just are maybe a little bit nerdy.
Okay, maybe you’re right, yeah. You’re right. I immediately assumed something scary and diabolical.
Sometimes it’s hard not to. It really is. But Media have to deal with a lot of people who just want to get on camera. We have a LiveStream; you can actually see it right over there. People come up and talk just for the sake of talking. People are saying, “Hey, man! You have to tell the people about this, man! I got shut down when I was playing guitar!” Well, that’s unfortunate, but this is not about playing guitar.
[Just as the interview draws to a close, Joshua belatedly tries to interrupt it, decrying “the media” and shooing Olivia away.]
Ian
This is my second night. I’m staying here for four nights.
And you’re from Occupy Toronto, you said?
Yes, I am.
So how are you finding this, as opposed to Toronto?
Ah, it’s different. It’s interesting to see that each city has it’s own problems. They have different setups, and different ways of dealing with things. There’s definitely some things that I want to bring back to Toronto. I see some problems here that I see can be prevented, such as the panhandling thing.
Do you guys have a problem with that?
Not at all. I just want to tell them that it is a possibility. And I want to make sure that in Toronto, money is donated only to the logistical tent. It’s interesting here because I think there’s a lot less support from local businesses.
There’s, like, none, right?
Well, there’s food—I think that’s donated from local businesses. And there’s a couple other things donated, but in Toronto, we constantly have food and resources, and a small Internet provider donated Wi-Fi for the whole park, like, public. The Media tent has their own line.
Are you involved in the media side in Toronto?
Not really. I’m involved with the Info and Welcome centers in Toronto. I’m a full-time student and work two jobs, so I don’t have a hundred percent free time to commit to the movement. But when I have time, I’m out there.
What are you studying?
I’m studying sociology and cultural studies.
So you’re sleeping over there sometimes, and doing your schoolwork there?
Yes. When there’s some downtime during the day, I usually take out my textbooks and read them and stuff like that. I’m originally from Toronto, but I go to school an hour and a half outside of Toronto, so that makes it a little extra hard to be there.
I’m looking to spread the Occupy movement to schools. We need to get students more organized. The press stopped coming to Occupy Toronto because they realized, “Hey, this is organized! We can’t just rag on them anymore,” which they did for a really long time. There’s been media blackouts at certain newspapers and television stations, so now there’s a movement for protesters to interview media.
That’s a good one.
And if this media outlet refuses to be interviewed, they get blacklisted. It creates a level playing field.
What are some of the good things you’re seeing here in New York?
Lots of people.
More so?
Due to New York just being bigger, I think there’s more flux of people coming in and out.
It’s interesting that Occupy Wall Street is not exactly on Wall Street. It’s kind of impossible to occupy Wall Street, just like Occupy Toronto Market Exchange is not right in front of the Market Exchange. It’s by a park, similar to this.
In a park, you can have a decent conversation, and you know, if somebody wants to discuss something beyond politics, most people are down for a little laugh here and there. Just keep things a little light-hearted. You can’t be serious all the time; you’ll burn out or get annoyed. You have to keep an open mind with everything, and laugh when it’s appropriate.
Can you say a thing or two about your reasons for occupying?
Well, the division between the rich and the poor is just growing at an astonishing rate. It’s reached a point higher than it was during the Great Depression, and that’s not really okay.
The way things are going, they’re not how I’d like to see them. People are not treated as individuals; they’re treated as a number, and treated as profit. And Wall Street getting bonuses when their companies are failing? That’s kind of ridiculous.
I think the Occupy movement around the world sees this. Although they’re not directly going to change Wall Street, I think standing in solidarity with all of America is a great thing, and shows that they do care. They might not have a direct voice in the State’s politics, but they can see that they too are not getting as much as they should.
The global economic situation sees no borders, so everyone needs to get out and have their voice heard. Every country has their own problems and their own solutions to stuff, and this is a great venue for all these minority voices to get out and say, “Hey! This is a problem! You can listen to us! The media is not covering the story, but here’s some legitimate information. Here’s links, here’s books, here’s such and such!” I think it’s a great venue for doing that.
Were you an activist before this?
I don’t know if I would consider myself an activist before this. I did do other political things, and I do volunteer and stuff, but I’ve never been involved with something like this.
So what was the difference for you?
Well, I was following this online since the first or second week, and I just saw this growing and growing. As soon as I saw the videos of the protesters being arrested on Brooklyn Bridge, and the kettling, and the weird mesh thing they’re putting around people to arrest them . . . it’s absolutely bizarre and appalling that they treat people like this. I was in support of the movement, and then when it was expanding internationally, I was just like, “I’m on board a hundred percent.”
Any political spectrum can walk through, and most people are going to start an intelligent conversation with them. You know, everyone can be engaged here. It’s not an us versus them thing that I think many protests in the past have been. This isn’t, “If you’re in support of that, you can’t be in support of us.” This is, “You’re a part of this, too.” This is humanity. We’re trying to get a voice out, and it’s great. And it’s being heard. The world’s watching. The passion that some cities have put on, and the amount of support that other cities have gotten . . .
In Albany and L.A., the cops are refusing to arrest the protesters, whereas in Chicago, they’re constantly being knocked down.
That’s traditional, though, for Chicago.
But at the same time, there’s huge riots and police brutality in Toronto.
I’m so surprised by that!
Canada is very conservative right now. The divide between the rich and the poor is growing at a faster rate than in the States, and they’re thinking of introducing mandatory minimum sentences. I’m pretty sure only Texas and California think that’s a good idea.
Well, we had the Rockefeller Laws here in New York. I don’t know if that’s exactly what you’re talking about.
I don’t know. I’m more involved in the Canadian perspective because I feel like I have more of a voice there. Yeah, Canada is not going the direction that I think it should. I don’t think a lot of people are educated on what’s happening. Large corporations are charging more and more for their services when they’re making two thousand percent profit.
I’m talking about the telecommunications in Canada. It’s in a sad state. The idea of having unlimited Internet access is not going to be a reality anymore. Most companies have started introducing bandwidth caps and charging exorbitant rates. And that’s just computer Internet. Smart-phone Internet is also extremely expensive.
Yeah, it’s kind of ridiculous. When our communications are mostly done online, I don’t want to think, “Hey, is this YouTube video going to cost me five bucks? Is accessing this information that I need for school going to bankrupt me?” That’s obviously an extreme, but it’s a lot of money. If most politics and stuff are being discussed online now, it really leaves out a large segment of the population: people who can’t afford to be a part of this Internet economy and Internet politics.
It’s already been hugely stratifying.
Already, like with people who don’t have the education on how to use it. They have another bar that they don’t have the economic means to clear. That’s terrible.
Yeah, and the crime bill is ridiculous in Canada, trying to introduce warrantless wireless spying on people so anybody in power can look at whatever you’re looking at online. They can look at your love letters to your sweetheart. They can look at how you’re spending your money. They can see who you’re supporting. It’s really not a good thing, and it’s sad. Nonviolent offenders are seeing more jail time than violent offenders and pedophiles. It’s kind of disgusting. And having a system where those who do not own property see more jail time than those who do own property . . . a crime’s a crime.
The world’s watching every moment of this. Everyone’s going to be in support of this at some point. It just takes time. ❖